tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post5345762572412366104..comments2023-10-16T07:47:36.179+11:00Comments on Eleven Foot Pole: Chekhov's Gun and a Satisfying FinaleGreg Tannahillhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-6571178494145524342010-01-09T10:08:57.917+11:002010-01-09T10:08:57.917+11:00Keep's been spending the bulk of its mechanica...<i>Keep's been spending the bulk of its mechanical muscle teaching players about positioning through encounter after encounter. They've been pushing enemies down pits, over ledges, into traps and through holes in almost every significant struggle to date</i><br /><br />I don't understand how <i>Keep on the Shadowfell</i> can focus so much on positioning when only one of the <a href="http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4dnd/20080616a" rel="nofollow">pregens</a> (the rogue) has any forced movement abilities. Is Bull Rush going to occur to players and be so attractive with no powers?Noumenonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01597461989960782762noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-81968887936307643122009-10-23T00:03:52.809+11:002009-10-23T00:03:52.809+11:00Apologies for thread necromancy, but I've been...Apologies for thread necromancy, but I've been reading through your articles, and wanted to mention my own experience of this encounter here.<br /><br />When our group got to the end, two of us fell off the chains, and took far too much damage. We were also pretty hurt from the previous fight, but weren't allowed to rest first. We didn't figure out what to do about Kalarel until it was too late, and the skeletons kept us far too occupied.<br /><br />The end result was a TPK, and an unsatisfying experience. We got the impression that we were all rubbish at 4E (despite some veteran 3E players), and that most the designers seemed more interested in designing punishing newbies than entertaining them.<br /><br />Even a year an a half later, we still have bad memories about this module, and yet even its worst bits seemed better when you described them. I think we just got it all wrong.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-39584731830002397042009-06-26T03:52:02.319+10:002009-06-26T03:52:02.319+10:00I came upon your blog well after this post, but I ...I came upon your blog well after this post, but I read everything from the start, and while you may never see this comment, I just wanted to say, for posterity's sake, that this post is masterful. You couldn't be more correct about the complete lack of violating Chekov's Gun in this module, and who the true villains are.FalconGK81noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-89745886879030263922009-04-25T03:22:00.000+10:002009-04-25T03:22:00.000+10:00This is an excellent and insightful review of the ...This is an excellent and insightful review of the module. I look forward to reading more, now that I have found you via Zubon.Elfhttp://www.slain-by-elf.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-63210042663895392042009-04-24T09:00:00.000+10:002009-04-24T09:00:00.000+10:00Oh, the Rift, right.
Yeah, Keep never really ans...Oh, the Rift, right. <br /><br />Yeah, Keep never really answers that question, as-written. In the game I ran, I had Keegan's sword Aecris given the power to close (or for that matter open) the Rift; most of Kalarel's "incompetence" was a deliberate plan to lead the adventurers to Keegan's tomb as he knew his evil servants could never liberate Aecris from the undead knight. The players played into his hands by bringing him Aecris, the element needed to complete the ritual. However, with the aid of Splug and other allies they turned the tables, sent Kalarel to his just desserts and then closed the Rift with the sword. The resultant energies shook the Keep apart; the players escaped but the location that once held the Rift ended buried beneath a half-mile of stone.Greg Tannahillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-34805733023133516352009-04-24T08:27:00.000+10:002009-04-24T08:27:00.000+10:00Yes....there's definitely a problem in the players...Yes....there's definitely a problem in the players encountering Kalarel only moments before his "final" fate. I think the problem, though, isn't so much with KOTS but the entire SERIES of modules. Having Kalarel return in a later module would have made more sense to me.<br /><br />In my reflavored version of KOTS, the party is going to have to rescue some victims of some orc kidnappers. The orcs are supposed to deliver these new slaves to Kalarel. The players should rescue the slaves and then defeat Kalarel (at least, for the first time).<br /><br />When Kalarel is defeated, the Thing from the Portal is going to grab him and say "Don't think you can gain your freedom that easily, Kalarel." While Kalarel is going to be evil, the Thing is definitely going to be more evil and still has much more work for Kalarel.DevoDoghttp://www.devodog.usnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-86546638246867996662009-04-24T06:17:00.000+10:002009-04-24T06:17:00.000+10:00Sooo...um what about the rift? does it just close?...Sooo...um what about the rift? does it just close? how did you handle that?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-79710001878987245042009-04-23T22:15:00.000+10:002009-04-23T22:15:00.000+10:00Interesting you mentioned Arkham Horror. I love Ca...Interesting you mentioned Arkham Horror. I love Call of Cthulhu, and we frequently play Arkham Horror afterwards, almost as a way to unwind. But I wouldn't be happy if CoC was discontinued, and we were told that we now basically had to play AH to get our Great Old Ones fix. That's how I currently feel about 4E. <br /><br />And Epic Fail Destinies strike me as one of the worst elements of 4E, because they are so vague. I think they're aiming at something like BECMI's 'paths to immortality', but a character never has to DO anything aside from reach level 21 to attain them. Perhaps a future suppliment, actually incorporating these into character development, might work. But I can't see how that can really happen - at level 21, you're still stuck doing dungeon crawls, only wth bigger numbers. In AD&D and BECMI, the tone and feel of your character's adventures changed when you became high level. So far the higher level 4E adventures I've seen are identical to the lower level ones, only you're crawling through a dead god's body rather than stony caverns. <br /><br />And finally, 4E seems hell-bent on subverting the classic traditions rather than using them. One of my pet hates of 4E is the way that they use old terminologies to mean something completely different (tieflings, Kord, eladrin, gnomes, dragonborn, Colour Spray etc). I think that's why I like the Deva in PHB2 - they are wholly different from the old 'aasimar' and are named accordingly. It sounds pedantic, but it bugs me. <br /><br />I'm inclined to agree with you that the game is fun in small doses. But that still leaves it in the Descent/Arkham Horror realm for me. So far, I haven't seen anything that makes me want to adapt it as a main RPG system. The earlier editions need less work for me than this one. <br /><br />But I'm willing to keep trying and experimenting, and your blog has given me much food for thought in that.Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-51279645270448398432009-04-23T22:10:00.000+10:002009-04-23T22:10:00.000+10:00This comment has been removed by the author.Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-44278443251828485982009-04-23T21:51:00.000+10:002009-04-23T21:51:00.000+10:00"I'd say also that by means of mechanics like Epic..."I'd say also that by means of mechanics like Epic Destinies it's more inclined towards the generation of memorable and unique experiences than your typical boardgame."<br /><br />Exactly, Descent is a great boardgame that allows you and some friends to do some dungeon crawling with little effort and I love it for that.<br /><br />However, Descent really has no roleplaying elements and as such is not really a good vessel for storytelling. I understand that it is possible to run a 4E game that is nothing more than Descent but it would be much more difficult to run a Descent game that lived up to the storytelling potential of roleplaying games.Arkemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05047833961750578893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-52454269332001942952009-04-23T18:12:00.000+10:002009-04-23T18:12:00.000+10:00I have to confess to not having played Descent. I...I have to confess to not having played Descent. Ironically the entire genre of abstracted RPG boardgames have left me cold ever since I started getting into game design in a serious way.<br /><br />I'd start off by saying that 4E is a better <I>balanced</I> game than Arkham Horror or Last Night on Earth or Heroquest or any of that ilk that I have personal experience with. I'd say also that by means of mechanics like Epic Destinies it's more inclined towards the generation of memorable and unique experiences than your typical boardgame. It's more customisable and permits of more variety in individual experience.<br /><br />It also proudly hosts the extensive <I>tradition</I> of D&D, from the classic monsters and races through to the traps and cliches that make D&D so recognisable; that's not something you can get in quite so pure a form anywhere else.<br /><br />I think really the only way to size it up on that criteria is to sit down with a game of it. Even with a terrible module, 4th Edition is a thoroughly fun experience in short doses; the only question is whether it'll entertain you over longer stretches.Greg Tannahillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-14943536079156166862009-04-23T17:46:00.000+10:002009-04-23T17:46:00.000+10:00Thanks for the analysis Greg. And please keep goin...Thanks for the analysis Greg. And please keep going as long as you feel you have something to say - 4E is lacking any constructive criticism right now and you're providing a valuable service. How I wish someone with your insight was employed at WotC!<br /><br />Your final summary sums up how I felt about 'Keep'. Five minutes reading through it tells you it's lousy, but you have neatly explained _why_ it's lousy, and suggested improvements. I had noticed some things, but you have highlighted other things that I had missed, or not realised the extent of. <br /><br />Your final sentence is the one that makes my heart sink though. I was prepared to forgive 'Keep', as it was the first 4E adventure, and I accepted the introductory offering was going to be a straight dungeon crawl. <br /><br />However, as far as I can see, all the other WotC efforts offer an identical play experience to Keep. Some are a bit better, some are even worse (Sceptered Tower of Spellgard, for instance... At least 'Keep' has a halfway satisfying finale. 'Tower' just staggers towards the finish line and collapses ten meters out. The writers seemingly forgot to include an actual ending.)<br /><br />Is it possible for 4E to provide a playing experience that you couldn't get from 'Descent'?Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-33923722257948305412009-04-23T17:38:00.000+10:002009-04-23T17:38:00.000+10:00I would also add that it's important to let the PC...I would also add that it's important to let the PCs push or throw him or whatever. Just having The Thing kill him is very anti-climatic for the players - White Wolf adventures used to suffer from this all the time.Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-17848294938074779622009-04-23T17:24:00.000+10:002009-04-23T17:24:00.000+10:00It's such a total cliche but here it works perfect...It's such a total cliche but here it works perfectly. It seems so right just where it is that we're not even tempted to ask what it is or why Kalarel would want to open a portal directly on top of an entity that clearly has no problem with summarily killing him.Greg Tannahillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-4416614838898265742009-04-23T17:09:00.000+10:002009-04-23T17:09:00.000+10:00Ah, the Thing from The Portal. The true gem of thi...Ah, the Thing from The Portal. The true gem of this module.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-12906192007647815682009-04-23T16:49:00.000+10:002009-04-23T16:49:00.000+10:00Definitely doing Thunderspire Labyrinth. I expect...Definitely doing Thunderspire Labyrinth. I expect I'll complete that in much shorter compass because (a) it's a better module and (b) the encounters are more interdependent so I'll really need to take them in groups.<br /><br />I'll play it by ear. I imagine at a certain point my criticisms will really start being all the same, and that's probably the point at which it stops being fresh.Greg Tannahillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-26275085666644373752009-04-23T16:46:00.000+10:002009-04-23T16:46:00.000+10:00And a fine finish for you as well, sir. More of t...And a fine finish for you as well, sir. More of this, please! Other modules perhaps?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com