tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post3663561838312306041..comments2023-10-16T07:47:36.179+11:00Comments on Eleven Foot Pole: Torog's ShrineGreg Tannahillhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-64127611543699255642009-06-05T14:57:51.642+10:002009-06-05T14:57:51.642+10:00Alchemists fire and acid flasks make great motivat...Alchemists fire and acid flasks make great motivators for those PC's who like to stand their ground.By The Swordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16799389743529116360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-81508221221009129332009-05-31T08:40:35.845+10:002009-05-31T08:40:35.845+10:00But centaurs have been a PC option since 2nd editi...But centaurs have been a PC option since 2nd edition. They are thematically far more like candidates for PCs than monster races like duergar and bullywugs...Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-25220080551267246752009-05-29T17:25:25.475+10:002009-05-29T17:25:25.475+10:00Speaking of that. How did they get the dire wolf i...Speaking of that. How did they get the dire wolf into the shrine?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-35759171197997481192009-05-29T08:21:46.245+10:002009-05-29T08:21:46.245+10:00I'm not sure that PC rules for centaurs are entire...I'm not sure that PC rules for centaurs are entirely sensible. 4th Edition seems to be trying to avoid characters who can't fit into the same space as other characters and have difficulty safely navigating cramped indoor areas.GregThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532920274312703426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-66837805095015747262009-05-29T07:24:32.940+10:002009-05-29T07:24:32.940+10:00You're right about the Monstrous Compendium, S...You're right about the Monstrous Compendium, Scott. I never did bother much with those. I've always thought D&D is better with a small pool of monsters than loads of new ones.<br /><br />Against my better judgement (hoping for something sensible like PC rules for Centaurs) I did buy the new MM2. Now, I've had many, many 'WTF??' moments in 4E, but this is the worst of them. Between the porcupine duergar, the bullywugs that heal you when you kill them, and the genuinely bizare 'Insane Noble', I have to concur that this book is either a huge in-joke or the work of someone criminally insane. I simply no longer recognise the game of my youth. I full expect MM3 to contain only the flumph, flail snail, and pages of Mike Mearl's scribbling in crayon 'All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy'...Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-76273040182329017882009-05-27T07:59:07.234+10:002009-05-27T07:59:07.234+10:00Maelora: "I'm unlikely to get MM2, but I wonder if...Maelora: <I>"I'm unlikely to get MM2, but I wonder if all players necessarily want to fight iconic monsters at low level. [...] There's something to be said for going up in level to the point where you can take on and expect to beat a classic monster like an illithid or beholder. Offering low-level versions seems to cheapen the classics to me."</I>I suppose I see your point, but I'm hardly your target audience: the Beholder-kin Gauth can trace its first appearance to a Monstrous Compendium appendix in 1989, two years before I was born.<br /><br />Also, there's a account of someone over at ENWorld who added a Gauth to this encounter. The result: a horrible, bloody TPK.Scott W.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-58625609865775993162009-05-26T14:59:12.413+10:002009-05-26T14:59:12.413+10:00I'm constantly having to explain to people that ye...I'm constantly having to explain to people that yes, "just deserts" is the correct spelling, that no, it's not "desserts", that yes, it is a different form of "deserts" to the geographical sense and no, it's not to my knowledge used in any other part of modern English.<br /><br />I proofread for a living so it's particularly annoying when errors creep into blog posts.Greg Tannahillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-49434661542011082842009-05-25T18:33:46.238+10:002009-05-25T18:33:46.238+10:00Sorry Greg, didn't mean to be pedantic. I only poi...Sorry Greg, didn't mean to be pedantic. I only point out typos if they're funny. I once wrote about 'thirsty travellers in the dessert' and my players have never let me live it down...Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-90862396845487755952009-05-25T09:09:49.654+10:002009-05-25T09:09:49.654+10:00You caught my spelling error. I'll go fix it.You caught my spelling error. I'll go fix it.Greg Tannahillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-32194499971732565112009-05-24T20:56:41.593+10:002009-05-24T20:56:41.593+10:00>wrestle with the dungeon boss beneath the inti...>wrestle with the dungeon boss beneath the intimidating gaze of the huge Idle of Torog.<br /><br />Idle of Torog? :-)<br /><br />I have this image of the PCs fighting deperately beneath a statue of a demon-god who is slumped asleep on his throne...Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-38870449485517391432009-05-24T17:04:45.818+10:002009-05-24T17:04:45.818+10:00We did manage to get through Torog's Shrine on our...We did manage to get through Torog's Shrine on our last session, and indeed, the party completely avoided entering the main area, instead facing the two duegar down the side passage. The combat was still challenging and interesting, as I made two archers flank from the side and forced a "squishy" rogue striker into combat with Force Lure which drew the defenders forward to help out. Force Lure also worked well with the giant fireplace. The party had to chase archers down the stairs into the shrine proper where I sprung the Dire Wolf, too big to really leave the shrine, on them, taking them by surprise. Pretty successful still. <br /><br />Unfortunately, they sorta forgot completely about the kitchen area and left The Chamber of Eyes without even realizing that there was more to it to explore. And if they did know, they certainly didn't care.Oscarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03587835670304597132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-56080698565168790742009-05-24T15:36:39.186+10:002009-05-24T15:36:39.186+10:00Scott - The MM2 does indeed look good but I'm hold...Scott - The MM2 does indeed look good but I'm holding off getting it just yet as I can't honestly think how I'm going to use it. Both groups I'm running are working in pre-printed modules (my fortnightly group are near the end of Thunderspire and my MapTool group are about a third of the way through Rescue at Rivenroar).<br /><br />Maelora - Stealth and diplomacy are only fun when they're rewarded. There's no "Oh my! How did those heroes get in here? Flee!" moment to be had from taking the back way. Players still have to fight all the same monsters, just more slowly and with less real danger. It's objectively less fun. The satisfaction of knowing you made the right tactical call is pretty much all used up by round 2 of the combat and then it's just four rounds of swinging weapons.<br /><br />Oscar - Well, the "chunk in the doorway" option works sometimes, but as per my previous post, don't they often run into trouble with the rearmost enemies going looking for help? (If they don't, maybe you could do that more often) In Torog's Shrine if they try and hold the door, the goblins could well use either the secret door to the refectory or the route through the living quarters to flank them.GregThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532920274312703426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-32432300476086871592009-05-24T01:53:19.529+10:002009-05-24T01:53:19.529+10:00Maelora: One of the cool things about 4th edition...Maelora: One of the cool things about 4th edition is that if you present them with a level 5 solo dragon at levels 3-5, and fully describe the size of it, when the have a hard time beating it, they'll still feel impressed. Later in the campaign, when you unleash an adult or elder version of the dragon that as a youngling almost party wiped them, they'll feel even more awesome after they tango with and defeat the beast. <br /><br />On topic:<br />My problem with my group is their insistence to fight every battle on their terms. Lots of really cool encounter areas don't come to much when the tanks won't move the front line into the rooms and they fight from the hallway. If my party does get to the Shrine and enter the double doors (we'll find out next Friday), they'll certainly fight from the doorway, bottlenecking the Dire Wolf and gaining massive cover from the archers, who'll have to leave their vantage point to hit the PCs. Even if I set up a flank from north with duegar reinforcements, we'll have another clumped hallway fight. I can't seem to get them to enter the rooms until everything is dead. That's why I was impressed with the BBEG encounter from H1 because the PCs were forced into the center of the room from the get go. <br /><br />If only their methods were less effective, but the party's defender is rocking a 23-24 AC at level 4 and the hobbies are attacking at +7. It's hard to hit, and it's hard to target anything else. I can't tell how much fun the PC's are having, but I know I'm personally getting bored with the repetitious combat encounters.Oscarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03587835670304597132noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-34428442950588369152009-05-24T01:31:51.421+10:002009-05-24T01:31:51.421+10:00Speaking of dragonslayers, the blue dragon wyrmlin...Speaking of dragonslayers, the blue dragon wyrmling happens to be a level 4 Elite Artillery now. He's a pretty tough contender, too.<br /><br />And being "lucky or skilled enough to take the stealthy or clever route", in this situation, will result in a fight anyway. It will make the fight easier, but the problem is that it will also make the fight much less interesting.Scott W.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-58973606113033278932009-05-24T00:20:42.923+10:002009-05-24T00:20:42.923+10:00I see your point, but I don't see why players who ...I see your point, but I don't see why players who are lucky or skilled enough to take the stealthy or clever route should be forced into a frontal assault just because it's more 'fun'. That's what supposedly differentiates pen and paper RPGs from the likes of Final Fantasy, after all. Not every player wants the hack and slash approach - I know quite a few who derive immense satisfaction from tricking or negotiating with the enemy rather than killing them. Some players like to feel they've overcome an obstacle in a different way. If this is the approach a given group take, then it's likely they will have 'fun' in doing it their way. <br /><br />4E already has a heavy 'gamist' feel. If you take tactics away from PCs completely, why are they making the decisions in the first place? Just run a string of combats without any preamble and save them the false choice. <br /><br />I'm unlikely to get MM2, but I wonder if all players necessarily want to fight iconic monsters at low level. If a low-level beholder is just a reskinned Elf Archer, where's the challenge in that? There's something to be said for going up in level to the point where you can take on and expect to beat a classic monster like an illithid or beholder. Offering low-level versions seems to cheapen the classics to me. I never liked calling myself a 'dragonslayer' when all I'd killed was a 6 hp hatchling...Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-2074998486503837822009-05-23T23:44:58.046+10:002009-05-23T23:44:58.046+10:00Whoops, forgot to close that last tag:
[/shameles...Whoops, forgot to close that last tag:<br /><br />[/shameless plug]Scott W.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-77743812348985099482009-05-23T23:42:55.160+10:002009-05-23T23:42:55.160+10:00Generally, I deliberately choose to make suboptima...Generally, I deliberately choose to make suboptimal plans as long as they're exciting. Hurling myself down on the wolf from a second-story balcony is exactly the sort of thing I would do.<br /><br />It turns out there is indeed a low-level Beholder in the second <I>Monster Manual</I>. It's a level 5 Elite Artillery, and would be very interesting indeed with a two-level setup like this. Telekinesis ray! Sleep ray! Central eye! (All three in every round, no less.) Maybe trade out some archers for melee combatants... describe the Beholder Gauth as being linked somehow to the idol?<br /><br />The MM2 is a really good book, by the way. Check my URL for my attempt at an extended monster-by-monster review of every single entry.Scott W.http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?p=10381600#post10381600noreply@blogger.com