tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post2799975932065947970..comments2023-10-16T07:47:36.179+11:00Comments on Eleven Foot Pole: The Slow BuildGreg Tannahillhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-6803464617530623012009-11-05T22:36:03.727+11:002009-11-05T22:36:03.727+11:00My God, were we pissed at the ghosts. Help us out ...My God, were we pissed at the ghosts. Help us out or don't - and out of the pieces of information we did receive, only one was even remotely useful - but don't make us jump through stupid hoops for it. In the end, when we saw that we weren't going to succeed anyway, the Paladin decided to use Intimidate to tell the ghosts that they were a bunch of idiots and needed to straighten up. Obviously, this auto-failed, but with an Intimidate roll of way over 30, they at least got the proper verbal thrashing that they so richly deserved. <br /><br />Wankers.Johan_Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14819794325435131121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-10942395026541152142009-09-01T10:25:45.405+10:002009-09-01T10:25:45.405+10:00I like the skill challenge mechanic, but I think t...I like the skill challenge mechanic, but I think that to work properly you need to put a bit more effort into them than most modules do. However, I also don't think they fit well with social encounters except in certain cases (such as defending someone in a trial or representing a faction's interests in a debate).<br /><br />That said, you could replace "I flex my muscles to show the spirit my manliness" with "I perform a flourish with my sword to give the old ghost a taste of my swordplay" and it would seem nowhere near as ridiculous.<br /><br />I think the best use for the skill challenge mechanic is in representing physical ordeals that take place over a long period of time or over a large area. For example, a chase scene: Streetwise and History to locate possible escape routes the target might utilize before the chase begins, Athletics and Acrobatics to avoid obstacles and weave through crowds, Stealth to approach the target without their notice, Perception to spot the target should they get too far away (which could happen if the PC's accrue too many failures), and Insight against the target's Bluff to avoid being thrown off-track.<br /><br />There are some good examples of skill challenges in published material: One module in Dragon magazine (I forget which one) uses this MASSIVE, multi-part skill challenge to simulate the PCs' interactions with about 5 different NPCs, including representing one of them against the other 4 in a debate. How the PCs interacted with each of the NPCs determines the difficulty checks in the last phase of the skill challenge.Hexmagenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-87742173407779182062009-08-12T17:24:38.862+10:002009-08-12T17:24:38.862+10:00@Vincent - You've caught me; I've been thi...@Vincent - You've caught me; I've been thinking about talking about skill challenges for ages but I've been taking my time pinning down specifically why they're frustrating. I might have something to say ready to go by the time we get to the doorman of the Tower of Mystery and his equally inane skill challenge.Greg Tannahillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-28365710195885378892009-08-12T16:45:00.679+10:002009-08-12T16:45:00.679+10:00@Greg
I'm aware of the many articles about ski...@Greg<br />I'm aware of the many articles about skill challenges. Even found one where they are used for specific moments during a war where they would become useful such as motivating the troops etc.<br /><br />Still I'd like to see your detailed view on this mechanic if possible. You do seem to have interesting view points at times.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08718244943617868709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-44113010826933039262009-08-12T16:12:03.003+10:002009-08-12T16:12:03.003+10:00@Anonymous & Anonymous - are you the same guy?...@Anonymous & Anonymous - are you the same guy? And if so, are you arguing against yourself? The second anonymous post refutes the first one. <br /><br />This is why I say, if you'd seriously like to be part of the discussion, please add a nickname or something to your post. Just sign off at the end. Like this.<br /><br />- GregGreg Tannahillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00823898295759037081noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-35675560358471268952009-08-12T12:58:46.171+10:002009-08-12T12:58:46.171+10:00"This skill challenge involves the spirits of..."This skill challenge involves the spirits of a trio of adventurers<br />who were slain years ago when they attempted to cleanse Baphomet’s demonic influence from this place.<br />They managed to recover the items needed to open the door to the inner sanctum but were killed by the Guardian"Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-74376423093494647642009-08-12T12:08:31.625+10:002009-08-12T12:08:31.625+10:00The ghosts didn't place the items. They're...The ghosts didn't place the items. They're part of Baphomet's initiation. This is not hard to figure out.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-63743015972629002182009-08-12T09:25:22.233+10:002009-08-12T09:25:22.233+10:00RPGTreehouse, I'm both 40 and a Brit. I rememb...RPGTreehouse, I'm both 40 and a Brit. I remember Rentaghost! It was actually semi-serious when Mumford was in it in the early series. The later ones focused on Claypole and were more camp and comedic.Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-30386292035000915972009-08-12T08:17:56.405+10:002009-08-12T08:17:56.405+10:00@Anonymous - re three ghosts four items - that'...@Anonymous - re three ghosts four items - that's an excellent point. Maybe they had a fourth friend but he escaped? Maybe the wizard used Mage Hand or some other conjuration?<br /><br />The effectiveness of the Guardian (as I'll eventually talk about) is based entirely on how it's played.<br /><br />@Vincent - There's a skill challenge column in Dungeon, and I know I've seen a couple of blogs around that talk about it a lot. In my opinion taking time to discuss making skill challenges work is throwing good effort after bad; they're a clunky mechanic that's inherently doomed by the limited and dungeon-centric skill set and the lack of mechanical depth via feats or other mechanics tied to skills.<br /><br />@Anders - Skill challenges work best when they're focused on dungeon and wilderness survival because they're covering up for the fact that neither DM nor players know what specific actions would be needed to navigate the challenge successfully. Rather than forcing everyone to go do research to learn how to survive in a desert, we just roll an endurance check. They work very poorly when the process itself is important, as is the case in diplomacy or puzzle solving.<br /><br />@sebmojo - I ran that encounter as printed when I did Rescue at Rivenroar but you're right that the version you quote is vastly more interesting (and less prone to the PCs having to torture a prisoner).GregThttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01532920274312703426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-31069143399198982252009-08-12T07:52:56.287+10:002009-08-12T07:52:56.287+10:00I agree about the lameness of the published skill ...I agree about the lameness of the published skill challenges to date - I think there's some meat there, but for it to work each challenge needs to essentially be a minigame, like a combat, where players have to make difficult decisions and allocate resources. <br /><br />This <a href="http://forum.rpg.net/printthread.php?t=458302&pp=200" rel="nofollow"> thread </a>has a fantastic example of how to do it well (from the look of it anyway)<br /><br />Massive text dump incoming:<br /><br />Phase 1 (optional) - Interrogating the Prisoner<br /><br />A hobgoblin prisoner (Volk) is kept in the stocks in the town square under guard, where an angry mob has gathered and begun throwing stones and rotten food. The hobgoblin starts with 10 hit points. At the start of each round, he takes 1d6 damage from the crowd's violence, unless they're deterred (see below).<br /><br />A maximum of 2 successes can be gained in this phase, and each success also grants some information about the Hand (the second one being the Hand's location in the ruins of Rivenroar). Once the party has 2 successes they can continue making primary checks to get more information, but this won't generate successes towards the skill challenge.<br /><br />The prisoner, the crowd, and the guards are all active elements in this phase.<br /><br />(read the thread for more)sebmojonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-31071686609115286932009-08-12T07:36:16.317+10:002009-08-12T07:36:16.317+10:00I played the ghosts in my game like the characters...I played the ghosts in my game like the characters in Rentaghost.<br /><br />Here's whatUK based forty year olds probably remember, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RentaghostAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-74889141642782806492009-08-12T05:55:13.903+10:002009-08-12T05:55:13.903+10:00I suppose the technically, extended skill challeng...I suppose the <b>technically</b>, extended skill challenges to disarm a trap (Thievery over and over, maybe Athletics to keep huge blades in place) or navigating the desert (Nature to find your way, Endurance to not die) are just as lame as these diplomacy skill challenges, but they stick out somehow...<br /><br />(On the other hand, they're probably the least lame in theory. At least you have three "talky" skills - Diplomacy, Intimidate, Insight - and a bunch of knowledge skills to pad the list of possible skills to use.)<br /><br />(On the third hand, American Idol would be greatly improved if the jury was undead.)Anders Hällzonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14034180481043534390noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-53261322697542911912009-08-12T05:14:13.341+10:002009-08-12T05:14:13.341+10:00Social Skill challenges are indeed awful. I prefer...Social Skill challenges are indeed awful. I prefer to do it old school with no limitations then add mild 4e mechanics in the background. That means the 6 success roles before 3 failed roles along the conversation as to determine how much information the players actually get. This really comes in handy when interrogating monsters, because you know have a clear cut moment when he either cracks and spills his guts or shuts up and tells lies.<br /><br />Is there a Skill Challenge blog by the way? Can't remember having seen one around here. Would be an interesting read.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08718244943617868709noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-61312049733174815682009-08-12T03:45:06.637+10:002009-08-12T03:45:06.637+10:00This is quite possibly the most bizarre D&D en...This is quite possibly the most bizarre D&D encounter I've ever seen. I know if I played this straight, my players would dissolve into fits of uncontrollable laughter. <br /><br />I mean, it's essentially a ghostly version of 'American Idol'. The idea of some Conan-alike rolling Athletics to flex and pose is too ludicrous for words. I know my players couldn't take it seriously. <br /><br />I might even be tempted to make this one an obvious parody, and have the ghosts as thinly-veiled versions of the 'Pop Idol' judges.<br /><br />Heck, if 4E EVER needed a Perform skill, it's here...Maelorahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04417893958736462142noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-1685111439655975302009-08-12T01:04:58.261+10:002009-08-12T01:04:58.261+10:00My group met this past Friday, and took on the Pro...My group met this past Friday, and took on the Proving Grounds. The skill challenge with the ghosts was painfully bad. I wish I had realized how bad it would be, I would have just done like Greg and turned it into a straight role playing situation. I think from this point on I'm tossing the diplomatic skill challenges out and doing those situations like I used to do in 3.x. I'll let them make skill checks to aid in influencing the NPCs, but leave it to their words and actions to get the result they want. It's unfortunate, I was hoping skill challenges would work, but they just don't, at least not the social ones I've done so far.<br /><br />As for the Proving Grounds encounters, they had a BLAST. By far these have been the best encounters of the campaign so far. We had to wrap up in the middle of the Guardian fight, but I think that is actually a plus. The fight is very dynamic, and while I'm sure our heroes will be triumphant, I don't think THEY are so sure.FalconGK81noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1991833568800031158.post-62582470216649155182009-08-12T00:08:01.329+10:002009-08-12T00:08:01.329+10:00How did the three ghosts place four items down sim...How did the <b>three</b> ghosts place <b>four</b> items down <b>simultaneously</b>?<br /><br />As the DM, I found the Guardian fight a let down after all that build up. The party dispatched it quite easily, without fear (and much trash talking).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com